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Looking for Atmosphere Part II
FZ: Looking at your book 'A world without words', one of the most interesting characteristics one notices is its pluralism in the choice of images, which is somehow in contradiction with a stereotypic way of classifying your work as 'minimalism': how did you come to that selection?JM: Actually I think they all relate in some way to my work, one should look at everything. Influence comes from everywhere. The individual interpretation of what surrounds us leads to indivudual expression.The selection I made was a way to communicate without talking, which would have been a disaster, it was really an attempt to make a visual lecture. Originally it was a slide show which I put together for the first lecture I made, at the Instituto Europeo in Milan. The selection was made more or less instinctively, from books and postcards which I came across at that time.
FZ: It s a great idea to make a lecture without words: did you manage not to say anything?
JM: Yes, definitely, I didn’t say a word.
FZ: Is the choice you made still meaningful to you today?
JM: I was tempted, at a certain point to make a more up to date version of it, perhaps somehow less romantic, more dry, but then, when it was time to reprint the little book we decided with the publisher not to change it. I’d rather make another one, although I’m not sure it would say anything different. I think this one is still valid, I don't find any image in it which is embarrassing, today, or a terrible mistake. Also, there is a certain safety in the number of images, the combination of some of them is more important than a single image. There are some images which are not particularly meaningful on their own, but which work in the context of the overall selection. They are there just because they were in the books I found when I was making the selection.
FZ: This reminds me of the method of Bob Wilson, in whose works there are things, objects, happenings mixed together with others not because these make a particular sense but because he happened to see them together at the time he was working on the theme.
JM: I think I used a bit more editorial control than that, the images had to fit in with a quite loose criteria of communicating some emotion within the first second of looking at them. I think I developed this quick assesment of imagery during my time at the Royal College where I used to look for relevant material by flicking through books, very often I didn’t know what was relevant about them, just that they communicated something. It got to the point where I would buy a book for a single image. Later on I realized that all these images had a strange relevance together, and that it would make sense to bring them together.
FZ: How do you pass from two-dimensional imagery to three-dimensional objects?
JM: I think you can be very inspired by a photograph, even if it is a black and white and difficult to understand what the reality could have been. Sometimes it is even more inspiring not knowing the reality because it gives the imagination room to work. Design is a funny thing, you really need these feelings, of sensing atmosphere, possibilities, materials, qualities. Atmosphere is better than any other term for expressing what I mean.
FZ: Is there a direct link, sometimes, between image and product? Could you give an example?
JM: Yes, it could be, for instance in the “world without words” book there is an engraving from a catalogue of carriages of a coach handle which lead directly to the FSB door handle I designed. This a very direct example, it isn't always like that. Sometimes it can happen walking into a room like the one we’re in now, and being inspired by the general atmosphere, it can also happen that one is inspired by something from a kind of visual memory catalogue, a form vaguely remembered can be reinterpreted and applied to a new situation.
FZ: Is this a process of thinking in terms of environment, trying to find a context for an object while designing it? Even a two-dimensional environment, like a photograph for example, rather than working on the isolated object, isn't this an attempt to put the object in a context. In architecture, for example, one has the possibility to work on creating or at least controlling a full context, the inside, but also the outside, the environment and the landscape. The project is rooted to it’s context. While in design one of the great difficulties is that one is working without a specific context, without control or relation with the surroundings, for instance, one has to design a door handle, but without having a particular door to refer to, neither a room, nor the house which contains that room. Is there a link here to the early room instalationsyou made?
JM: Yes, definitly. These were genuine attempts to check the effect of things I was designing at that time on the atmosphere of a theoretical space or room. It’s interesting to think now that this was taking the process full circle, from inspirational atmosphere to object and back to atmosphere. The question in the back of my mind must have been “Will I lose definition in the process of scanning and reprinting?” I’ve never had the ambition to be a creator of new form. I'm sure there are people who are creative enough to invent from nothing but for me it’s always been necessary to have a starting point.
FZ: Could you get an idea by thinking about a specific material, for example?
JM: Yes, for instance this summer, thinking of a chair, I saw samples of gas-injected technology, a kind of elliptical shape, and it suggested the leg of a chair to me. I’ve designed the chair from the legs upwards, which is unusual!
FZ: Do you think that this necessity of stimulation is due to the fact that design is a discipline which is confronted with a world already full of stuff, not anymore driven by the concepts of necessity and progress, but rather by a highly sophisticated and refined way to create and follow its own metaphors?
JM: Well, yes, it becomes more and more difficult to justify: one has to think and work much harder to achieve valid results. On the other hand tools like hammers have been evolving this way for centuries, maybe chairs have finally caught up.
FZ: Now that the basic problems are solved, the basic needs fulfilled, one can concentrate more on the 'how' than on the 'what'. In other words, perhaps the contemporary condition of design allows the freedom of working on the refinement.
JM: I think all the early arguments of design like form follows function, etc. were all concentrated on the object isolated from the context of everyday life, these were logical but short sighted theories. In reality objects enter interiors and have a profound effect on the atmosphere, this is a part of designing which is often neglected and an area where you could say there is room for improvement. So that after having defined the function of a chair over the centuries now is perhaps the time to look at the problem on other more mysterious levels. A parallel in architecture would be how buildings meet the ground, what happens at the join and how they relate to their surroundings.
FZ: This parallel suggests another question: while in the past architects seem to have been thebetter designers, this is not true today, especially in the first decades of the century they certainly seem to have been able to add this special 'extra view' to their approach to objects and furniture, and then it completely vanished. Do you have an opinion on that?
JM: I think they had a license to do it, which designer’s have ignored, it was a sort of experimental work, with a particular consciousness of space and the relation between objects and space. For me the best example is still the Corbusier’s interiors where he selected the Thonet chairs, and certain objects.
FZ: Don't you think that they also had the chance to devote their attention to a new way of living, and that the results were more relevant for being related to really innovative ideas of inhabiting, and that therefore these objects and furniture were deeply influenced by this new approach, by the manifestation of modern living? While today nothing new happens in this field: we are still living in the same kind of interiors and environment defined by the experience of the modern, eventually filtered through the contributions of the 50s and 60s.
Do you see in the recent changes in the organization of work, in the 'invention' of the home-office, a possibility of reviewing our idea of living spaces?
JM: Uhm, in reality I think that the problem with this concept is that these developments are very often the expression of a money/space saving process, a very incomplete theory which is formulated at the business end rather than the home end, so that people are sent back home to work and initially maybe they think that’s wonderful, but they are then isolated from the world. Perhaps creative work can be done like this, but then, for most of us, our work involves other people, and meetings and discussions and going out.
FZ: This is certainly true, but I was not thinking of people who are told to stay home and do their paper or computer work in a less expensive way, but rather of the growing number of independent individuals who, thanks to the new technologies and links, can establish themselves a sort of one-man-company, requesting and providing services and products which were probably not existing or simply differently organized before. Do you think that this new phenomena will affect and change our homes? Is the fact that we will use the home differently going change something at home? In that case the home may become not jut the space to escape from work, or the opposite of your public life, but it may become the full expression of most aspects of your life.
JM: I don't see such a clear cut between living and working, in the sense that you probably don’t need special equipment for defining a working space within the living space. Perhaps the home will become a more creative or replenishing place for having some kind of work element and not just the place were you go back exhausted, fall down and watch TV.
Sometimes there are also surprising consequences of the so called ‘technological progress’: take the video recorder for example, this in fact gave us the possibility to escape TV, since it’s possible to record one’s favorite program and watch it when one has time, which at first seemed to allow the greatest form of TV addiction, but in reality the result is that, reassured by the fact that it has been recorded, one simply forgets about it, and never watches it at all. Also, the possibility of seeing good programs independent of TV’s schedules had the consequence that the good programs have been relegated to very late at night, so that when you watch TV at normal time it’s so boring that you are better off going out, new technology can be liberating in unexpected ways!
FZ: I wonder which is the role of the design, of the designer in all these events. Of course these depends on general changes of the society, not on design's interventions.
JM: If I think at the situation in London, at the moment, where a new restaurant opens every week, it is more and more rare to be invited to somebody’s home because there are all these things going on out of the home, maybe this kind of neutral territory is easier for people, but at the same time the home becomes more personal and the time you spend in it perhaps more and more important for being rare, so I could imagine that after all we have talked about the internet and the technology, that home actually becomes a more private space again but treated with a lot of attention perhaps for the reason that it is in the end the most important and private space we have.
FZ: In this sense, the choice of objects in a home becomes very meaningful, because they respond to different emotional expectations.
JM: Well, perhaps this is a sort of liberating process in the sense that the 'status' fact of the object becomes less important, whether you want to express the fact that you are an antique collector or an art collector, it is much less important if nobody is going to come to your home. So perhaps objects become more personal, and are chosen for better reasons than status.
FZ: On the other hand people perhaps won’t spend money on furniture, if nobody sees it, while they could have for instance a great car, or clothes.
In reality we know almost nothing about how people really live, in their homes: sometimes a photographic book, like the old Electa one (title), shows, in an almost voyeuristic way, slices of life, which are somehow always a surprise, compared with the ideal scenarios of the 'designer home’. Is there an example of an interior which is particularly significant to your work?
JM I always remember staying in a cell at the convent La Tourette designed by Le Corbusier, which I consider an example of 'real' minimalism: a very simple room which has everything you need, a perfect room, where in about 10 sqm you have an apartment: when you enter the door on your right you have the bathroom and a cabinet which divides the bathroom from the bed, in which you can put from one side your clothes and from the other your book or whatever; after the bed you have a table and a chair and then in line with the door to the room there is the door to the terrace and the terrace is no more than one meter deep, but it’s enough. So I had this very nice night, in a room with a lot of spirit, a lot of character, where I felt completely comfortable.
The next day I went to a hotel in Germany, a kind of businessmen’s hotel, with a big room 4 meters by 5 meters with carpets and curtains and minibar and TV, and double bed and separate bathroom, everything in brass, it was so depressing, the contrast was so strong. This experience made me think about the amazing power of architecture, a power that allows you to transform concrete walls, which can look like a prison if left empty, thanks to good planning, into a room which is 100% comfortable and practical, where you really feel good. And then with bad planning and stupid products you can make a room which is closer to a prison. I had to put my bag down and go out immediately.
FZ: A monk’s cell has often be quoted as an example of the so called 'existenzminimum', the minimum dimensional requirements for living.
JM: But in terms of fulfillment of human needs it is the opposite, it is the maximum, you have everything you need, and there is the real difference. The La Tourette room is dealing with real human needs while the German hotel room is dealing with expected needs or needs which society builds up, which aren't real.
FZ: Is there a way for the designer to point out such needs, to underline them and make them visible to people, or do you think is it too late for this kind of role?
JM: This is a difficult subject because as a product designer you are only responsible for the chair, the table, the drinking glass. It’s something between Architecture and Design, it’s a difficult subject because an interior designer is very often not qualified enough in architecture, or in product design to create that correct atmosphere.
FZ: Do you think there is a substantial difference between architecture, interior architecture and design or do you see these issues as something that developed in a sort of unity and then differentiated in the latest decades?
JM: If you look at architectural magazines, you see that architects insist on having their buildings photographed before any things are moved in, as if the introductionof objects will spoil the purity of the space, and this is a kind of missed opportunity because I think architects should be more aware and accepting of how people live in their buildings.
FZ: On the other hand one should also consider that when an architect takes over the interior decoration it is often a real disaster, they seems unable to resrain themselves or to handle it in a proper way, which was not the case with the great architects at the beginning of the century, just think of the great interior of the The Four Season’s restaurant made by Philip Johnson in the Mies van den Rohe building. But today even great architects produce objects and furniture which, though sometimes conceived with a lot of attention and expectations are really poorer, in visual and technical qualities, than a good product. Why this original capacity has been lost?
JM: I think there are some architects who are much more involved in the interior projects, by choice and by necessity, without being over architectural in their approach. On the other hand the two disciplines imposed by buildings and objects are almost opposites. The latter is referring to identical reproduction, while the building is always or nearly always a unique situation, a prototype, it has as much to do with the outside as with the inside and it is difficult to take it in in one glance to see its structure or form, it’ss a more complex problem.
FZ: Is it that an architects perhaps invests too much, use too much of this complexity for something that, at the end, requires a certain simplicity, clarity, a capacity for pointing out and solving a few basic human needs?
JM: It is also interesting to notice in photographs of new buildings, controlled by architects, that when they do put in furniture they nearly always select Le Corbusier’s chaise longue, or some similar totem, it’s a very strange insecurity or fear of objects competing with architecture, but if you put Le Corbusier’s chaise longue in a room it’s just a statement which says 'this is an architectural piece of furniture' and not 'this is a real piece or furniture'.
FZ: What is the role of a design oriented furniture company in enhancing good design and blending this with good architecture?
JM: The best way I think is that the pieces have some consistency together, and in an overall exhibition or commercial fair the company is able to communicate an atmosphere which the piece combined or individually is capable of giving. In my experience the companies which work the best with design have an individual at the top who has a strong vision of what the company is and will be.
FZ: In a sense, would the conclusion be that it isn't possible to create or maintain a Design oriented company without this strong personal approach.
JM: In the case of furniture production, I think that its a kind of very personal, almost private industry in which companies don’t work so well when they become too big, at least when they become so big that the communication between designers and this mysterious individual with the vision is broken. Whenever the designer is not able to communicate directly with the person who’s vision the company isthe results will suffer.
FZ: Do you think that this kind of process is still more in line with the traditional client-architect, or client-designer personal relation, a role which cannot be easily delegated to or substituted by a committee, department or managers' group?
JM: Well, I believe that one needs the kind of situation I mentioned, for good design to become a reality, just as one needs a good engineer and a strong technical department, Design is increasingly part of a teamwork, inspite of the image of the designer as ‘creator’. There is something in the mix, which is necessary and it’s a very complicated chemistry.
FZ: Can you give an example of companies you have worked with, which follow this vision?
JM: FSB, Cappellini, Alias, Alessi, Vitra, Flos, Magis, SCP: these are all small to medium size companies, with a person in control who has a clear understanding of what he wants to achieve, and an interest to work directly with the designer and not to have the designer meet with managers below him.
FZ: What happens in case of more complex products, like the tram you designed, for which you surely don't deal with a single client, but with a group, or a committee: how do you manage these types of projects?
JM: I was very lucky in the case of the tram. I had a project leader who was more of less this kind of client or partner in the project and who worked very well and was enthusiastic to producing something different. It was his first project, and perhaps if this person had done several projects like this one, knowing all the dangers, problems and difficulties, it would have been more difficult to achieve anything different.
FZ: Is it possible that collaboration with other friends designers, work in a team, would lead to good results? Could colleagues play this role of ideal partners?
JM: I think that there are projects which work much better in a team, perhaps not so much the product projects but for example exhibitions design, town planning projects, urban interventions, where you need somebody else with a different point of view and where the richness of the project comes through this dialog.
FZ: Is this the case of your collaboration with Andreas Brandolini?
JM: Certainly. We did three urban projects and one exhibition design and few others, and these were all very satisfying works. We called our collaboration Utilism International, which symbolised our approach which was ironic in a sense but also very sincere: to remove the ego of the designer from the projects and to say 'we think in terms of the end user, we think in terms of practicality, and we think in terms of spirit and atmosphere of the end result an so we are not looking to create sensation but for the more discrete and charming aspect of practical solutions' and everyday life.
FZ: Was this also a way of giving up individualism, or the sort of personal branding that so often accompany the designers’ work? Was the goal to arrive at a sort of anonymous result, or common result in which the single contribution was not anymore recognizable?
JM: Yes, to come to a genuine result which we tried not to advertise, not to say 'look, here is what we can do' but we were working directly for an end result which was 100% practical, atmospheric as a result of function and full of real life. It was very refreshing to have the chance to work like that, and not to worry or even think about having your name on the project or what people would think.
FZ: Is there any particular difficulty in this team work?
JM: I think we had a sort of common feeling of what the project should be and we were very quick to see which contributions fitted into that frame, so that the ego-part didn't bring particular problems.
FZ: Is the team work also a way for bringing in a fertile complexity, or the appropriate plurality, into the approach to a urban work?
JM: In East Berlin we did a nice project. Several groups were invited to intervene in different parts of East Berlin with the idea of the unification and we called our project “zero to five meters”. We were only concerned with the surface level and up to this height of 5 meters, which more or less changes the goal from architecture to something more fundamental. Basically, we were thinking from the point of view of the pedestrian and we did a very practical project which was hated by the people who organized the competition.
FZ: Why?
JM: I think they were looking for something more monumental. And Utilism International faced many situations like this where our work was not appreciated at all because it was insufficiently monumental. We did another project for a park outside Paris, it’s an area which has been designated as a regional park. We thought the most important thing was that the people who live in that area should not feel they are in zoo, ok, it could be a nice park, it is already a nice park and we don't have to decorate it and to make it a kind of a tourist center, because that doesn't change how nice the park is and so we took that approach and did very normal signage system, street furniture etc., a very practical approach and we were almost thrown out of the meeting, they wanted something made by a blacksmith, something fancy which would give the area a ‘special’ identity.
FZ: Is there any particular individual in this field who is inspiarational or do you usually refer to some anonymous environment?
JM: I think we had already started when Rolf (Fehlbaum) sent me the book by Christopher Alexander “A Pattern Language” and we already found we were on a very similar line but it was very interesting to look at his research, at his writings and I think there is a lot to learn there. Even if sometimes it has a slightly dated almost hippie-like commune feeling to it, the basic philosophy I think it is 100% on track.
FZ: Are there other significant cultural references you see as important for your development?
JM: I discovered the work of Franco Albini much later than Jean Prouvè, Eileen Gray, and others I already mentioned, these were my initial influences and much later I came across a book on Albini. I immediately felt a great affinity with his work, in a way that I don't think I’ve felt with another architect or designer, ,just the general spirit of the work is so great.
FZ: And what about friends, acquaintances who might have influenced you or you might have interacted with?
JM: When I was still studying at the Royal College James Irvine was a year ahead and he left the college and went to work for Olivetti, in those early days, going to Milan and staying with James was for me very formative and we had a great time. James was the one person I could talk to about design, in many late night sessions, with a similar enthusiasm and shared values. The contrast between me being more or less unemployed and him being already in the design world was also very nice. I was envious of his position, his immersion in that professional world which has taken me so many years to get in, even now I'm not sure if I consider myself a professional.
FZ: What was for you the first experience which gave you this kind of professional status or consciousness?
JM: It’s something I very very slowly acquired. But the first big break I had was an article in Domus and from that came a door handle project with FSB and another with Cappellini. And though these were at the beginning very basic industrial projects they were real, they were industrial, and you need that as a starting point. I think it was really a slow process of growing from one project to another, learning from each one, learning about the business of production step by step. That’s not something you can learn at school.
FZ: How has your relation with Cappellini developed? What is your role now? How do you see your contribution? Is there something special and unique, not easy to reproduce or something you think other designers could develop with other companies with similar goals?
JM: I think I'm very lucky in having found Cappellini, in meeting Giulio (Cappellini) I was lucky enough to find somebody with a vision very close to my own and I think still today we have a very good communication on the level of what a project should be, which kind of pieces Cappellini should be producing, the general atmosphere which the collection represents.
FZ: Can I say that in a certain sense this is another designer's task: to imagine and design a scenario, an environment composed by the overall production, irrespective of who materially made the design of the single products?
JM: Especially in the exhibitions we have made for the fairs, we’ve made a great effort to show furniture not as individual pieces but in a collective environment, to try and show something more to do with living than just Design. One of these was “The house of Cappellini” and another “Progetto Oggetto” which in retrospect I think anticipated the re-evaluation which is going on now for smaller domestic products. The great thing about Design is that it concerns itself with everything, from the small factory which can do something interesting to the environments which surround our daily lives.